The trains they are a-runnin'

Yep, the goal of getting trains running again on Saturday was met. Here is my daughter Laura at the controls of the new Bachmann DDA40X on the layout:



Lots of things, mostly little tasks, had to be done to get to this stage. The final feeder wires were connected last night. Today I got the power cabinet in place with new rollers (more on that in a later post) and ran the remainder of the Auto Reverse (AR) busses from the staging to the cabinet. All the power components, including the PM42 AR device, had been mothballed when I tore down the old staging in December, 2008, and were put up again in the power cabinet. The wiring is still considered temporary, as I want to operate for a bit before I decide the final arrangement of components in the power cabinet. I also had a few leftover wiring and track issues to take care of.

Then I cleaned the track and began running my most reliable DCC engines. The loop from the upper tier staging to lower tier staging and back is just under 190', or about 6 scale miles. There are a small number of track tuning issues I encountered, but far fewer than expected. The AR sections worked perfectly, as did all but one of the Atlas switches.

Over the next weeks I'll run more trains, adding cars and introducing more locomotives from my roster, and fix any track or rolling stock issues as I go.

Meanwhile, I have a host of other projects to start work on. One key one is to finish up the power cabinet. I probably want to add a couple shelves and make the wiring more permanent. I also want to order something for power district circuit breaking, and separate PD-1 (the lower staging) from the rest of the layout. I also need to reinstall the Digitrax ports along the front of the staging, where they used to be with the old staging, and fix some old bugs with the Loconet bus. In other words, there is still alot of general electrical work to do.

Another project is to start automating the switches. Another is to start building the track that will connect the middle tier staging to the layout. And somewhere in all that I want to start adding scenery.

So I'm not sure what to do next. But with trains running while I work, whatever I choose to do next will be even more fun.

Lower tier wiring near completion

Turns out there were 26 pairs of feeder wires needed for the remaining lower tier, including 5 on the Auto-Reverse track. By last night I'd sized, soldered in place, and labeled all the pairs of feeder wires. But none were connected to the terminals. Today I completed the Auto-Reverse wiring, including re-routing the A-R bus wires to a permanent location, and connected 10 of the 21 remaining pairs to terminals.

So, I should have the wiring for the lower tier complete tomorrow. I won't be quite ready to run trains yet. During the process of rebuilding the staging area I've tested track using temporary power set-ups. Now, however, it's time to move to the permanent power setup. I'll be using a power cabinet, described in my first post on wiring. I'll put the power components, including the auto-reverse devices, into the cabinet and wire them up appropriately. At that point it will be time for track cleaning (figure an hour, unless I can recruit some help) and running trains. I'm thinking we should be doing this by Saturday afternoon.

Lower tier finished less wiring

Today I anchored the north side of the lower tier alcove bridge, then put down the rest of the track:



If I have time I'll start on the wiring tonight. There are approximately 25-30 pairs of feeder wires to hook up. I think if I had dedicated time I'd probably average about 6-9 pairs per hour, but usually I get only short windows of time to do layout work, so I'm not sure how long it will take.

I have now used up all my Atlas code 80 flex track stock and have very few switches (2) and rerailer tracks (7?) left. I'll need to order more in order to finish the hidden layout track that connects to the middle tier, so I should make a point of sending out a track order in the next week or so.

Lower tier switches in place

More track laying today, I now have completed the lower tier staging through the remaining switches:



The various boxes lying on the track are used as flat weights to hold the track in place while the glue dries.

Getting close to done with the lower tier. I have a little bit of woodwork to do at the north end of the alcove bridge (currently that side is supported by a lone nail, it needs to be properly anchored), and a little bit more track to lay to connect the lower tier with the main layout. After that I'll wire the new lower tier track. At that point it will be ready for cleaning and once again running trains. Target for running trains again is still Saturday. The wiring task is takes a lot of time.

A Productive Weekend

After finishing up the middle tier staging yesterday I got a lot done today on the lower tier:



Progress today included: measuring and cutting the plywood subroadbed; installing the subroadbed, including some shims at the far end because of the plywood thickness problem I mentioned during the middle tier construction; added the blue roadbed; and put down about 36' of track. The new track has not yet been wired. In addition I've also finished the Visio of the middle tier wiring diagram and prepped the remaining lower tier switches.

I'm now working with all new material again, instead of reusing track and wire from the first failed staging attempt. This helps speed things along -- more than I thought it would. At this rate I should be able to complete the lower tier this week.

Middle tier staging complete

Finished up the middle tier track today. The middle tier is not yet connected to the main layout as I haven't run the adjacent main layout track yet, but when I do the staging is ready:



The middle tier track on the left is the return track (also the auto-reverse track). I'll complete that when I it's time to connect the middle tier to the main layout.

Speaking of the main layout, here is the first picture of that which I've published on the blog:



To better understand this picture I refer you back to the early posts about the iNdoor layout design and, to a lesser extent, on general staging requirements. The wooden structure in the middle of the room is "the box", referred to in the first post, and is designed to support two levels of layout in the middle of the room. Otherwise you see the lower level of the layout built all the way around the room. What you can't see in the picture is that track has been laid around "the box" and about half way around the room. You also see that the layout base is blue foam-on-plywood. I'll discuss that in a future post.

My next step is to build the rest of the lower staging.

More mid-tier gluing

Here's where the middle tier is as of tonight:



I did a switch inventory and realized that I have no right switches left. I'm doing a count of Atlas switches needed to complete the lower deck (not tier) of the layout, and will send an order in tonight. There is enough work to keep me busy until they arrive at the end of the week.

I've run out of track salvaged from the first staging attempt, not counting 3 switches. There was about 12' of flex track that had been nailed to the lower tier and was too damaged when removed to be reused -- I tried but it was apparent that it would not operate reliably. I'm starting to use new flex track again with new rerailer track. I'd forgotten how much easier fresh track is to work with. Re-using salvaged track has the advantages of already having feeder wire and rail joiners attached, but the track itself was harder to position and shape as it keeps wanting to go back to its old shape.

I have a bunch of flex track left over from my 2002 N scale layout, and I've used a few sections of it here and there, but I'm putting it aside from now, for two reasons. First, it needs a very intense cleaning to be usable. Second, as noted above, re-used track is harder to position and shape into place, and this very old track is almost brittle. I'd planned to reuse all the 2002 track (about 110' of flex track), thus saving lots of $$$, but I think this is an example where the savings in time may be worth the extra money. I'll include some new flex track in with my switch order tonight.

Mid-tier gluing progress

Have made decent progress gluing down new track on the middle tier. Here is a photo as of tonight:


I've nearly used up all the track salvaged from the first staging attempt. The salvaged track mostly consists of two sections, usually a piece of flex track and a rerailer track, soldered together with feeder wires attached at the rail joiners. This is why you see so many wires dangling above the middle tier in this shot.

It will probably take a few more days, possibly a week or so, to complete the middle tier. There are 8 switches to install, each which require a lot of time, and I've yet to connect the feeders for any of this new track. I plan to start work on the power cabinet sometime in this next week as well.

Short solved -- and more

I previously mentioned that there was an electrical short somewhere that affected the middle and lower tiers. I'd spent probably an hour or so trying to find it with no luck, so I stopped looking on March 28th and focused on the upper tier.

Today, with the middle tier ready for new track, I started the search afresh and found it within a few minutes. The guilty bugger was the staple on the left shown in this picture:


As often is the case, when you set a problem aside then revisit it later you find a new approach that works. In this case I realized that, having looked at everything 3 or 4 times, the problem almost had to be a staple that penetrated the insulation on both wires. Then I realized I could find it easily by using the multi-meter and checking for resistance between each staple and the track. Sure enough, this one registered loud and clear on the meter, and the repair took a minute.

Once that was done I started putting down new track. This picture shows the glue drying on two new track sections:


A close look on the left side of the picture reveals that there is a second layer of the blue roadbed on top of the first. As I noted in my last construction post, the new plywood I'm using is about 1/8" thinner than the old, and this caused the transition from one to the other to be uneven, even after I shimmed it. The second layer of roadbed seems like it causes no problems, however in order to keep the track as smooth as possible I'm letting this dry in place, without weights on it. This is an experiment -- if it works I might use the same technique for the rest of the staging track.

Next up: lots more track installation on the middle tier.

Mid-tier subroadbed complete

Finished cutting and installing the middle tier subroadbed. Here's a picture from the staging side of "the window":


I did complete about half the blue roadbed as well. This picture is from the other side, and includes a few flat objects on the just-laid blue section to keep it in place while drying:


Nothing special about this contruction step except that I discovered this 1/2" plywood is about 1/8" thinner than the 1/2" plywood I used previously. How can that be? Well, I knew this was really only 15/32", but it seems that the other stuff was actually closer to 5/8", or maybe 19/32". And I'd forgotten that I'd done that.

Oh well. I did a little shimming under the one end of the new subroadbed to keep the tracks even. The slight grade won't affect this area, since it was flat anyway.

Tomorrow I'll finish the roadbed. Then my next task will be to clean up the office/train layout area -- I've let it go this past month due to all the other activities. And I need my hobby desk usable again so that I can start prepping all those switches.

Mid-tier alcove bridge

Not much new to report. I've started building the plywood subroadbed for the rest of the middle tier of staging. Just one picture to add:


Previously I mentioned that there is a 3' 9" wide alcove that the staging tracks have to span without supports because I will later want to be able to crawl under the track to get into the alcove. In that previous post I had a side picture of the upper tier alcove bridge. This picture above shows the underneath of the middle tier alcove bridge before it has been installed, so provides a better view of the bridge construction. (Note that the bridge is temporarily resting upside down on another part of staging -- this is not where it will be installed.)

There's not much to this construction. Two L-girders are attached together with nuts and bolts to provide a level surface, then the L-girders are attached to the underside of the plywood with #8 metal screws and washers. The plywood is strong enough to hold a whole slew of N-scale trains but it will tend to warp/bow unless something keeps it flat and level -- the L-girders provide that service and also provide some vertical strength in case some doofus like me stumbles and lands on the bridge.

Next step is to finish the subroadbed and add the blue roadbed -- I can complete both tomorrow if I can get a free hour to work on it.

Upper Tier completed

Here's a picture of the upper tier with all track in place and tested. There is even a test train on the track:


One note about this construction is that I've made some improvements in the track installation techique. I learned, during the prepping of the Atlas switches, to file down rough edges in the switch rails that can catch wheels and cause derailments. Having done that procedure now for 24 switches I automatically paid more attention to the rail joints in this new section of construction, using the diamond files and even the rotary tool to make all rail connections super smooth. During testing I found that the newly installed track resulted in very smooth operations -- even better than what I found on the previously installed track. At some point I'll go back and apply those lessons to the rest of the staging track.

The only other construction note is that I compromised a bit on the wiring standards. The most recent construction consisted entirely of track re-used from the first staging attempt, usually in groups of 2 or 3 track sections soldered together and with the original feeder wires intact. As a result, I ended up with a few single sections of track with no feeder wire. Instead of adding an extra pair of feeders I just soldered these to one of the adjacent track sections. Throughout this process I've been using the multi-meter to test for shorts and I've found that there is virtually no resistance between adjacent rails soldered together, so I expect no troubles with this compromise. In fact, I'm beginning to think that my feeder-to-every-other-rail-joiner stategy may be overkill.

Once everything was completed, cleaned, and tested with the DC SD90MAC locomotive I hooked up the Digitrax and tested a long train on both grades. Here's a picture from part of that test:


The train in question is 33 Athearn Bethgon Coalporters, which are harder to pull than most other cars due both to weight and higher resistance wheels. With the two locomotives this train is almost 13' long -- over 2000' scale feet -- and would justify two or three lead engines in normal operation.

I found that two Kato diesels (SD40-2, latest release) pulled this up the 0.9% approach grade (the upper tier staging entry track near the wall) without any noticable affect on speed. Just for grins I tested the same train up the short 3.5% grade in the upper tier staging yard (as shown in the photo) and they got up just fine, albeit with some speed degradation.

Alas, when I tried two Atlas diesels (SD60M) they struggled mightily with just the 0.9% grade, making slow progress at full throttle and lots of wheel spinning.

This matches my previous experience with Kato and Atlas diesels from my 2002 test layout, although at the time I attributed the difference to the fact that the Atlas diesels I had then being only 4 axle (dash-8s) versus the 6 axle Katos (C44-9W). But, the Atlas SD60M also has that problem and it has 6 axles. Fortunately, most of my mainline modern freight diesels are Kato (17) versus only 4 for Atlas. For now I'll stick with Kato until I do some research and see if the Atlas problem can be solved easily. If not I can get by with assigning the Atlas engines to lighter duty work.

Finally, a note about time -- mostly because when I re-read these posts later I'll wonder why it took 3 weeks to finish the last section of the upper tier. My last post on upper tier construction was on March 28. One factor is that there was a lot of work required in this small space. 8 switches, reusing already soldered track, and fitting a lot of track into a conjested space all required extra time and attention. But the main factor is that I didn't have a lot of time the past 3 weeks due to lots of work at work and at home (prepping for 2 birthdays, Easter, some financial matters including the IRS, and several snowstorms that required driveway attention).

I may get more free time in coming weeks, but as the (hopefully) last Spring snow melts the outdoors is beckoning -- first the spring thinning of our little patch of forest, then the outdoor railway, which will generate a few posts of its own. I resolve to keep making weekly progress on the N scale layout, however. The next step is the middle tier of staging.

Atlas Code 80 Switch Prep Procedures

Atlas Code 80 track and switches have seemingly been around forever, literally since the 1970s or 1960s. They are still sold today because they have one huge advantage: price. An Atlas Code 80 #6 remote switch, which includes a snap relay switch machine and a switch control box, can be bought for $13.35 at Brooklyn Locomotive Works. By comparison, the combined cost of the more widely preferred Atlas code 55 #7 switch with Tortoise switch machine and a typical SPST switch box will run you at least $25 -- and other options such as Peco or MicroEngineering switches are significantly more expensive even than that.

Of course there are reasons Atlas code 80 is so cheap. First, it doesn't look anything like prototype track. Second, functionally speaking the slow-motion switch machines are superior to the old snap-relay variety. And third, there are valid concerns with the Atlas code 80 switches' out-of-the-box reliability.

I use Atlas code 80 in staging because: 1) prototype-like looks aren't important in staging, and 2) with 73 switches combined in my 5 staging areas the cost savings are significant. This means I had to come up with a solution to address the Atlas code 80 switch reliability problems, and that's the topic of this post.

Here is a picture of an Atlas code 80 #6 switch in package next to one that has been prepped for the layout. I've added three circles at places on the prepped switch to help with the explanation of the prep procedures. To get a bigger view simply click on the picture:


As far as I know the procedures here will also work for Atlas' smaller #4 switches. However, I recommend #6's because they are longer, with a wider curve radius, and thus more likely to operate reliability with any N scale equipment.

One point worth noting is that Atlas has improved these switches many times over the decades. Most of the chronic problems that were documented in the 1980s, for example, have been addressed in the current version. The issues that remain are addressed in the steps below:

1. Open the package. The switch controller and screws can be set aside until if/when you are ready to use them for switch control. The 6 rail joiners should be separated with a cutter, such as the Xuron rail cutter, and trimmed so that there is no excess metal on the ends of each joiner. I then put them in a rail joiner drawer until they are needed on the layout.


2. Inspect the switch. Look for track out of alignment and test the switch machine manually. Use a truck, such as a Micro-Trains replacement truck, to see if it catches anywhere when run over the switch. Once you've followed these procedures with several switches you'll probably be able to see the problems areas by eye without testing.


3. Look closely at the rails inside the red circle in the photo above. This is where the closing rails meet the point rails. I find it helpful to use a magnifying visor for this step. In almost all cases the closing rail is not in line with the point rail (the point rail is the one which moves), but instead sticks out a little. This "sticking out" can cause trucks to skip over the bump and in bad cases can lead to derailments. Using a small metal file gently file down the side and top of the closing rail end, and if necessary the end of the point rail as well, until the transition from one rail to the next is smooth. Note that this problem usually affects the diverging route but not the straight one, but just to be safe I file the rails for both routes.


4. Now inspect the plastic frog inside the yellow circle in the photo above. In some cases the frog is too big and thus can cause wheels to bump up when they travel along the frog. The solution is to file down the top of the frog tip, then file the sides of the frog tip to assure that wheels pass by smoothly all the time.


5. Check the ends of the point rails (shown inside the green circle in the photo). To be honest I've not seen a problem with these in the current generation of Atlas code 80 switches, but historically the point ends can be off level with the main rails. If so you'll need to add shims under the point rails or file down the rail tops as appropriate.


6. Now test the switch machine. This can be done by wiring it up per the instructions on the back of the switch package. However, to save time you can take two wires, one black and one of another color, and briefly touch them to the accessory terminals on your DC power pack. Then do the same with the other color wire and the black wire. Test only once, to avoid overheating the switch machine. Again, I've not experienced any out-of-the-box problems with this generation of Atlas code 80 switch machines, but if a problem does arise I want to find it before I install the switch on the layout


7. Finally, as the switch wires are short you'll probably need to extend them. I strip about 3/8" of insulation off each wire and crimp yellow butt splices (gauge 16-22, as shown in photo) that are found at Radio Shack. I don't add wire to the other side of the butt splice until the switch is on the layout, as until that time you won't know how much additional wire will be needed.

After that the switch is ready for the layout.

Electrical short debugging

As mentioned earlier today, I discovered an electrical short when testing the newly laid upper tier track. At the time I'd inspected the new track and feeders and didn't find the cause.

This evening I tried again. First I finally cut the rail between the upper tier Auto Reverse (AR) section and the main track. Once done I confirmed that the problem was with the main power district, not any of the three AR sections. Then I very closely inspected all the new track and feeders, including switches, and even moved wires around as a precaution, but still did not find the short.

At that point I began to suspect the track laid earlier for the lower and middle tier. I'd successfully tested that track at the time, but haven't run trains on it for over a month, so there is a decent chance that some of the adjacent construction activities could have caused a short. I cut the power bus wire between the I and J terminals in a way that will allow for easy reconnection. Then I tested and confirmed that the problem is with the older track.

At that point I tested the new track with the SD90/43MAC and everything worked great. The good news here is that all the precautions and applied lessons seem to be resulting in better trackwork, especially the switches.

The bad news is that I still have an electrical short on the old track. I inspected everywhere i could reach and removed several staples to look underneath but found nothing. I'll probably need to remove the upper tier bridge, and in order to do that I'll need to finish the rail cutting for the left side of the bridge.

Hopefully I can resolve tomorrow. If not I can continue work on the upper and middle tiers for at least a while before this electrical short blocks progress.

Diamond rail cutting

Ever since I completed the upper tier bridge structure I've had a "to-do" item of cutting the rails on both sides of the bridge in order to make it removable.

The challenge is that the rail gap must be wide enough to prevent electricity from passing across it, but narrow enough to allow the trains to pass smoothly across the gap. It is especially challenging in N scale to get a small enough gap because our wheels are so tiny. We can't use insulation to pad the bridge gaps, as we do the other rail gaps on the layout, because the bridge rails need to come up easily when the bridge is removed.

I tested a couple of thin-blade manual saws on some left over track and found them wanting: in part because it was hard to keep the saw from wandering off course and damaging the track surface; and in part because the back-and-forth saw motion created a lot of strain on the rest of the track.

Then I tested a rotary tool, commonly called by the name brand "Dremel", and it worked great. The only problem was that the resulting gap was too wide due to the width of the blade.

Today, while I was in Denver for other reasons, I dropped by Caboose Hobbies and found a thin Dremel diamond blade that looked to be perfect. It was $19 (yikes) but as no other solution is apparent, I bought it. After testing on a piece of scrap track I tried it on the track on the right side of the bridge:


The rail gap is so small in this picture that it is almost impossible to see. Look at the upper track, immediately to the right of the wooden bridge side. Below that track you can see the tools used -- the rotary tool with diamond blade, safety glasses (the blade really kicks up a lot of fine dust), and a simple box cutter I used to cut the plastic ties after the rail was cut.

The only problem was that after cutting it turned out that the track itself wasn't sufficently glued down on the right side of the cut. So, I added some glue (the white stuff at the bottom of the track in the photo) and used a pin to hold the track in place until dry.

Once dry I'll gently file the rail edges and test with a locomotive. If this works I will add the diamond blade to the track laying arsenal for special situations like this.

Wired .... but ...

20 pairs of feeder wire and 5 sets of switch machine wire, including the unwired one from the middle tier, have been completed, and the new track has been cleaned:


Alas, testing this morning found an electrical short somewhere in this picture. I've searched for the obvious causes with the newly installed wire, such as feeder wires reversed or broken wire insulation, and found nothing.

In the back of my mind I knew I should have been testing for shorts with the multi-meter as I made each wiring change -- but I didn't. Lesson learned. I will do so from now on.

When tracking down shorts the first step is to isolate parts of the circuit to narrow down the possible causes. Unfortunately, this is one big circuit except for the AR sections. (Hence the rational for power districts.) This may take some time to locate.

Weekend Update

Here's a picture of the layout as of Sunday evening:


The whole of the upper tier now has the blue roadbed in place and track has been laid up until where the north side switch ladder will be. The track has not had the feeder wires connected yet (all those black wires seemingly randomly placed above the layout are feeder wires that are connected to the track but not to the terminals).

In addition, you can't see it but in the past week I also: desoldered a bunch of the switches that were left over from the previous staging attempt; did some wiring work near/on the upper tier bridge (the feeder wires to the bridge track are now reached by disconnects to facilitate removing the bridge for maintenance); set up the Visio diagram for the upper tier; and began wiring the remaining switches on the south end of staging.

All in all, it was a good 4-5 hours work in the past week on the layout. Not as much as I'd like, but still making progress.

Nothing in the past week was particularly challenging -- just application of tried-and-true layout building techniques. My next step is to complete the wiring of this new track (including the south side switch machines), then clean and test it. Once that is done I'll finish up with the rest of the upper tier track.

I've begun shopping for the power cabinet components. That seems like a project that I may tackle before completing the middle and lower tiers of staging.

Making sawdust

Sometimes it seems my main output while building wooden benchwork is sawdust. I used to really like the benchwork part of the hobby, but after a few layouts it has become a drag. Fortunately, I'm almost done with lower deck staging and the main layout uses mostly foam-based benchwork.

So here's where I am tonight:


The subroadbed for the upper tier staging is now completely in place -- and if you look closely you may notice that I put down 9' of additional track next to the wall, too. You can also see the plywood for the middle and lower tiers cut and laying roughly in place -- they were put there temporarily to see that they fit, but they'll be set aside until the upper tier is complete.

Speaking of that, my next task will be to put roadbed and track down for the rest of the upper tier, including connecting to the main layout. I'm looking forward to seeing how trains do with the upper tier slopes.

Once that's in place I'll probably build the power cabinet. Once the staging track is connected to the main layout track it will no longer be practical to test track with just a DC power pack and alligator clips -- I'll need to fully set up the power wiring, including auto reverse devices. So, it makes sense to build the cabinet for those power devices before setting up the devices.

First Alcove bridge

As I mentioned yesterday I need to build bridges across the west alcove. Three, in fact (one per tier). The first one, for the upper tier, is complete:



1/2" plywood is sufficiently strong to hold N scale trains, the problem is that it will tend to bend and warp without supports (piers) every 12" or so. But the alcove span is 3'9" and I didn't want to build a support grid underneath because I wanted to permit maintenance access to the helix that will later be built in the alcove.

The solution is to use steel L-girders to force the plywood to stay stiff and level. Two L-girders are attached together using nut/bolt/washers and short (1/2") screws with a very wide head are used to attach the L-girders to the plywood. The plywood is supported at both ends by wooden piers. Once constructed test that it is level and adjust as needed (thin plastic shims may prove useful here).

This particular segment of plywood subroadbed was more interesting than usual because on the left side you can (sort of) see that the subroadbed divides into three parts, each with its own grade. I've mentioned this design element briefly in previous posts, but after this section is complete I'll add better photos and describe it in detail.

More wiring

At first glance this may appear to be a mirror image of the picture from Sunday's post, but this is taken from the other side of the wall. The red/black Power District bus and terminals are complete through this section of staging, and the 3 blue/yellow Auto Reverse (AR) busses have been set up. In addition, the subroadbed for the upper tier track near the wall has been extended through the "window".

I'm now measuring and cutting the rest of the plywood subroadbed, while also working on laying road bed and track for the rear of the upper tier.

Looking at the photo one may wonder why the grid benchwork for staging ends so abruptly. If you refer back to my early post introducing this layout you'll see that there is a small alcove on the middle of this west wall, and that this will be the location of the helix that connects between the two decks. This picture is taken from a spot just next to that alcove, at the top of the stairs. The grid benchwork ends here, and a bridge will be built to connect this track to the track along the west wall on other side of the alcove. I'll post on the building of the bridge later, but fortunately I'll be reusing the bridge method I used with the first staging attempt, so it should go fairly quickly.